This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. A recording of the interview is available here: https://www.newsradio923.com/pmn/episode/2798124d/060325-matt-finn-interview.

[Intro music: Let The Sunshine In by 5th Dimension]

Andrew McKay

Now I know you might be wondering why that song, A: just random song or B: you're having an architect on. What? Ohh, you'll get it in a minute, you'll get a minute. Joining us now we have a new friend, somebody that I just met last week. I was actually looking for some people to have on the show to talk about Vision Zero, and his name had come up and I got to talking with Matt Finn, who is an architect and the founder of Cognitive Design, and we got to talk and he's like, I don't know that I'm the expert on Vision Zero. And I'm like, well, what are you doing? He started telling me and I thought we should have you on the show. This is really interesting. So joining us now, we have Matt Finn, architect and the Founder of Cognitive Design. Matt, welcome to Pensacola Morning News, Sir.

Matt Finn

Thank you, good morning, Andrew.

AM

Good morning. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna introduce you by reading like the first paragraph from your LinkedIn profile. It says Matt is passionate about how the built environment influences human health. As a social entrepreneur and architect, Finn found a Cognitive Design in 2016, a consulting and design firm that works with a network of collaborators, including clinical psychologists, social workers, and healthcare practitioners to help inform the design process. That sounds simultaneously super complex and super froo frooy, but I get what that's all about. So let's, before we talk about the kind of architecture that you do, this is a really bare bones thing. But I like to not take things for granted; what is an architect? And I know people are like what are you? Seriously, people may not know and or they may have a wrong impression because you don't know what you don't know, what does an architect do and then what is your angle on architecture. What do you do?

MF

Absolutely. Tthe places where we spend our time affect our health and our behavior. And as an architect, I plan, design, and observe the construction of these places. The place where I got started, and I think a lot of architects get started, is playing with LEGO as a child. And the biggest difference between what an architect does professionally, and what I do now with my children, is that architects design buildings for their clients. So there's a large component of listening and empathy that goes into good design, and also teamwork with all the people involved in design and construction - from engineers and builders, to the people that will eventually use the places we're designing to help ensure everything turns out well. So for example, the way a building is designed can affect how much natural light you get, the quality of the air you breathe, how easy it is to move around, and even how connected you feel to nature and other people. Good architecture can boost productivity, reduce stress, and support physical and mental health by creating spaces that are comfortable, inspiring, and promote health holistically. So when you think about what an architect does, imagine someone who's not just drawing buildings sitting at a drafting table, but designing the backdrop for your life, spaces that can help you feel better, work better, and live a healthier lifestyle.

AM

You make me feel so relaxed and excited at the same time, but I have so many things I want to talk with you about because I think this is fascinating. And here's an example and you tell me if we're in the right realm. Houses that were built, say, 40 years ago or so, were more typically laid out on a hallway, and then you have rooms coming off of that hallway and you know, if you wanted to go from one side of the house to the other, it was a very linear kind of thing, kind of like a maze. Today what I notice is that houses have a more central plan where maybe the kitchen and living room are in the middle and then, kind of the rooms are spokes or elements off of that, and it's much more open, it's much more mobile. It's you have typically multiple ways to get from point A to point B within the house, whereas before you typically only had one way to get from are these some of the things that have as you know, changes in the general style of how is because those seem better to me, the openness and freedom of motion seem better to me.

MF

Yes, that's a great example. You can look back historically even further in the past, more than a few decades and see examples that are on the more extreme end of the spectrum, just to demonstrate the range. One beautiful home that you may have seen is the Vanderbilt mansion in Asheville, the Biltmore Estate, and this House has an extraordinary number of very specialized rooms. My favorite example here is they have a room just for wrapping presents. And when you compare that to a modern open floor plan home, you can see the way the home is going to invite and facilitate a different way of living. So there's gonna be, compared to the Biltmore Estate, there's gonna be less service provided, it's going to be more, you know, run and operated fully by the residents, and there's going to be a blending of activities from casual to formal and things like doing homework in a study and eating dinner at the dinner table, sometimes we're going to see those lines and boundaries of spaces overlap because that's the way that we live now. And this is an example of both environment affecting behavior, but also habits and modern lifestyles creating the environments that facilitate what the people, want in contemporary times.

AM

When I go into a building, when I go into a store, OK, I feel different when I go into an, example: OK, I go to Walmart a lot, I do not like Walmart. When I go into Walmart, I feel oppressed, I feel unhappy, I feel dim, I feel like I'm in a warehouse, OK. And then recently a couple of different Walmarts around the country have renovated their interior design. Some have gone to an almost, a plank wood type flooring. They've gone to softer colors. They've, you know, they've changed. OK. Some of them have gone in a different direction, but they have also changed. They've gone away from that old linoleum tile. They've gone to slightly better lighting. It seems like the awareness of how you feel when you enter a space, whether it's a Walmart or whether it's a school, or whether it's an office building or whether it's your, that way I feel, that's the goal that you have as an architect, is to make that way you feel superior by your design. Is that right?

MF

Yes, and what Walmart is doing in changing the design and experience of their stores is they're recognizing that that experience drives sales. So good design is good for business and I'd love to share some examples of different projects that I've worked on and how we really get down to the core of the experience of the customer and how when we design to facilitate a good one, that drives the success of the business.

AM

You know, sometimes you're in a home, you're in a church, you're in a, you know, a school, you feel good. Sometimes you're in these places and you feel crummy. And the design of these spaces affects your quality of life, how you feel, how you relate to other people you know, and it can affect interpersonal relationships, cause everybody's miserable in space or happier in a space or happier in a space. What, you were gonna give me some examples of things that you've done that kind of make that work well, because people ought to understand how this affects their lives.

MF

Absolutely. I'd like to tell you about my wife's practice, she's, her name is Stephanie and she's a pediatric nurse practitioner. She has a small business called Grove Health Pediatrics that provides direct primary care with the holistic and integrative approach. And for her business to succeed, the families and staff that are using her office need to be able to build trust and rapport with each other, and I don't have to describe how difficult that can be in a typical clinical setting with lots of noise, harsh lighting, and hurried staff. So by contrast, her office is very welcoming and comfortable in atmosphere.

AM

Yeah.

MF

They have longer appointment times, when you walk in the front door, you're in a community room. It's a safe place for parents to meet each other or reconnect with their kids after possibly a hurried drive to be on time to their appointment. There's no TV or electronics, just soothing music and a lot of natural light. It's the kind of place where kids can take their shoes off and play, and the parents are OK with that.

AM

It's like it sounds like a living room instead of, let's be honest, the typical doctor's waiting room is, you know, 14 chairs thrown on a linoleum floor with the TV's up above and barely any thought to the environment other than, well, I guess we're supposed to have magazines on this table over here, so that's what we have and you feel, I mean, I feel when I go to most doctor's offices like, you know, sit down, shut up, wait for your turn to be called on, and you're in a basically, I mean, it's hostile is a bit strong, but it's not pleasant. And then when you go into the waiting and you go into the actual waiting room, it's no better. The whole experience is very unrelaxed. And you're saying if you design differently, you get better outcomes with patients, they feel more comfortable and they enjoy the experience more, right?

MF

Yes, and, there's a, there's a very important role that the environment, you know that you're describing and the, the contrasting one that I'm describing, plays in the sense that the provider can only give care as good as the information that they have. So when you create an environment where families feel comfortable to have these intimate healthcare conversations with their provider, they're going to disclose more information that's going to put the provider in a position to make insights and give recommendations and advice that work for the particular people that they're caring for. It's individualized medicine, but it's also acknowledging constraints like lifestyle and resources that could influence the recommendations that the provider make.

AM

So it's not just a matter of feeling better, it's the actual practical consequence of when you feel better, more relaxed, more willing to disclose, you provide better information, you get better healthcare. So it's the end result of what the what the business is trying to do or what the service is trying to do is more effective.

MF

Yes, and that's what the customers are there for. And you could create a wonderful experience and have terrible healthcare providers in the business would not succeed. But for the businesses to be successful, one of the prerequisites is that the relationships that are core to that mission need to happen, need to be formed.

AM

I think of, you know, listening to you, I mean, I have so many things to talk about, but like, we're in the old Darryl’s Steakhouse, the Cat Country News Radio, we're located in an old restaurant. It's a very well-known old restaurant. It's a wild space. I mean, it's bricks and windows everywhere. And it's open in the middle. It's an atrium kind of design. Every time people come in here for the first time, they're like wow. And I've also worked in radio stations that are like mobile home. You know, like they're really terrible or cubicles, you know? And that's what I think of here. Even, you know, a different kind of example, as I think of, you know, a lot of Protestant churches, especially sort of like the more anti finery exquisite anti liturgical kind of churches are very, very minimalist, very bare bones, you know, save on cost. They look like warehouses, kind of the Walmart of churches, so to speak, and I compare that with when I go into a cathedral, you know, when I walk into a European cathedral, I'm instantly changed in my orientation. My attitude towards the universe by the stained glass and the pillars and the flying buttresses and the statuary and the ground. Environments affect us, and it sounds like what you're trying to do is make people pay more, I mean, which is what architects do, is get people to pay more attention to that. And I mean again, am I thinking the right way about what you do?

MF

Yes, absolutely. And you're describing, you know, some of the most incredible buildings in the world, these cathedrals and in Europe, really inspire awe and that's a wonderful way of using architecture to facilitate, you know, admiration and respect of God. It's also, it's also very true, you know in more mundane experiences, that we have in our daily lives. I mean, that's the whole premise of what I do is with Cognitive Design, is acknowledging that where we spend our time affects our health and our behavior, regardless of whether or not the design was intentional in doing so.

AM

And that shows up in homes, that shows up in schools, I mean, my God, the school environment.

MF

Everywhere. Yes, yes.

AM

It's so much of the time artificial light, obnoxious, I mean, just when you think of it, you think, man, whoever designed this, bless their hearts, I think of the New Baptist Hospital as a good example. Compared to the Old Baptist hospital. You know it's a, they've integrated outside with the trees, the walkways, the everything about that design seems to reflect what you're talking about as opposed. The traditional just, brutalist kind of architecture that these industrial healthcare facilities have in them, man, I knew we would run out of time real quick, but I just wanna, it seems like the expectation I think would be, well, that all sounds fine, Andrew. And you know I can maybe draw an inference that my marriage would be better in a happier home with better lighting, you know, or my kids would do better in a school where they had more, I don't know better things on the wall rather than just kind of the bricks, kind of thing, but OK, it's always cost, right? Is it not always cost? Is there a way to make this stuff happen without having to charge a massive amount of money in the construction of it?

MF

Yes, of course. I would say that one of the biggest core tenants that I follow in design and this can be everything from built in storage to, you know, separate buildings and hiring an industrial engineer to work on processes is reducing clutter. So whatever your home environment is, there is some way that you like to keep it, so imagine walking in your front door after a long day and your home is just how you like it. There's no right or wrong answer for what that is, but if things are put where they belong, you feel that this is, you know, a peaceful place. And then when you contrast that with your kids have been home all day. You know the house is looking a little wild.

AM

The aforementioned legos.

MF

You know, you feel a stress, yes. So, I would say that that's a super easy way, low-hanging fruit for everybody all the time. Open your blinds, open your curtains, get some natural light, open the windows, get some fresh air, and put things where they belong. Reduce the clutter. These are, these are super things that everybody can do right now to make their home facilitate feeling of peace and calm.

AM

Well, very good. You know, like I said, you and I could talk for a long time, cause I think of even things like how people who are living in, you know, public housing for example. I mean, it looks like public housing, it feels like public housing when you go around public housing, you're like, and you say, well, why do these people get stuck in these environments? Cuz they're stuck in these environments. I mean, that's not the only factor. But that is absolutely a factor. It looks and feels like the kind of place that nobody could really thrive in. And so anyway, just so many applications of this. And that's why I wanted to have you on, because I knew as soon as we talked for a few minutes the other day that it would be interesting. Matt Finn. He is an architect. He is founder of Cognitive Design and these, I'm sure as you and I are talking about this, all my architects go, I'm like yes, Andrew, yes, so, anyway, I just thought it would be interesting for people to think about this for a second. I appreciate the time and I certainly appreciate the work that you do, trying to basically make people's lives better through better design. Matt Finn, thank you so much for the time, Sir, and nice to meet you.

MF

Thank you, Andrew. Likewise.